Google Tap - Read This First & Take The Survey!

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:23 pm

Okay

I've read about 50 threads and for the life of me I can't figure out if I should even attempt to enable Google Tap or any of the associated products like SN Dynamic Titles, GT Nexgen, Dynamic News and/or Dynamic content on my site. I want my site to be followed by the search engines, but not at the risk of having no site left to follow.

Here are my concerns:

1) There is absolutely ZERO documentation for GT. I mean NADA! I've looked everywhere and I can't find one shred of documentation that describes exactly what this thing is doing, and how... never mind exactly what I should do to install it on my Linux server. I have found other information for Windows IIS servers too, but again, this information is cloudy at best and there are some real issues for those poor Microsoft burdened people as well. For the purposes of clarity, let's just stick to Linux in this thread (at least for now).

2) There is absolutely no mention of how this thing will affect security updates including (but not limited to) NC 2.1, NC 2.2 and Protector. I mean you folks have gone out of your way to make changes to the SQL structure and db I/O processes and paths in these updates.

How will enabling this thing affect all of that? Will it even work? I mean Protector is supposed to be monitoring specific paths, how can it do so if these paths are going to change? Will the monitored trails of the applications change with the GT installation?... IE will the add-in applications follow these changes after they have been made?
3) How does GT affect FUTURE security revisions? I mean if the engine is expecting one value and GT is changing that value, how can I successfully implement future security updates?

4) SID's and the use of anything but the normal "modules.php?name=Forums&" methodology. I see that NukeCops doesn't have SID numbers and they have those nice "postt" address properties. Nukeresources on the other hand is using the "/ftopic" methodology, which I'm assuming must be the same thing, but different.

On the other hand, I keep hearing issues from both of these sources about cookies and security and how all of these existing phpBB forum issues play together and how that changing ANYTHING in phpBB puts me at risk. Which prompts the question, SO HOW ARE YOU FOLKS DOING IT?
I mean, it sounds fairly logical for me to ask:

I'm going to try to avoid going further off into a rant, but it seems fairly irresponsible to:
A) Put a mod like this out there without any installation instructions.
B) Tell people about it (I mean if there is ONE thing that we all DO understand, it is how important search engines are to us!)
C) Tell us we should try it (with one heck of a BETA disclaimer being the only thing that is really in a Readme file)
D) And yet have nothing in terms of documentation describing how it interacts with Nuke or even YOUR own existing NC Nuke configurations.

The two most common phrases that I've read about GT are:

There seems to be a distinct gap between Point A and Point B. I think documentation would bridge that gap, but maybe it's just me.

Anyway, I'd love to hear some input in just one thread. I mean there are threads all over the place, probably 20 just here at NukeCops, and many going on elsewhere because there doesn't seem to be anyone officially providing direct response to questions. There's a lot of different answers and suggestions getting tossed around and there are some really neat discussions going on, but I have seen advise that ranged from people saying to only use the CVS software to others saying to only download what's here in NukeCops' download area.

Frankly, there are just way too many different opinions never mind differing "facts" getting spread around. Things are getting pretty confusing and frustrating, especially if you are moving between 6 different sites to get different answers.

Some basic clarifications, procedures and recommendations regarding who should and who shouldn't be trying to use this thing would be useful for a start. Again, a central SINGLE place (LIKE THIS DEDICATED FORUM!) would also be great. Now just getting all the messages here would be an achievement! Finally, some direct answers to the above direct questions would also be EXTREMELY useful.

Thanks!

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:42 pm

the lack of documentation really isn't a problem.
i have yet to have any problem installing GT

if it gives you any issues, pm me and i'll see what i can do

or if you dont want to hassle with it and wanna pay me 5-10$ to do it for you, im cool with that too. Very Happy

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:22 pm

Sounds cool.

How many 7.0 and 7.1 sites have you installed and enabled it on?
How many with ported phpBB forums?
How many with NC 2.1 and 2.2?
How many with Protector?
How many with "Who is Where" modules?
Etc...

I'd love to view some examples of successes that have these features enabled.

Corporal Joined: Dec 16, 2003 Posts: 61

GoogleTap is very easy to install. I have NextGen on both of my sites.

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 1:25 am

How many 7.0 and 7.1 sites have you installed and enabled it on?

4 6.9's and 2 7.0's

How many with ported phpBB forums?

all of 'em

How many with NC 2.1 and 2.2?

none -i've only setup the NC bundle once Embarassed

How many with Protector?
How many with "Who is Where" modules?

if you've see the way the module works its actually designed not to interfere with mods/addon modules unless you have programmed it to do so. it just rewrites the urls to appear differently.

example:

http://nukecops.com/forums.html
is actually displaying the page
http://nukecops.com/modules.php?name=Forums

if you ftp to the server there is no actual forums.html file

if whatever mod your installing modifies the actual url of a given page them it would no longer be "tapped" and if a googlebot sees it, it doesnt index it.

example:

downloads module links look like this

modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=1
GT translates that to:
downloads-cat1.html

now lets say you mod the downloads module to look like
modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=1&show=all
GT translates that to:
downloads-cat1.html&show=all

and the page is still properly displayed but not properly "tapped"

but just in case, if GT was causing major issues for modified Downloads module then we could just delete GoogleTap/GT-Downloads.php and turn off tapping for that module
---------------------------

so really, tapping a site in 99% of all configurations, will not harm the site.
mods will not break the site but to google modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=1&show=all

and
downloads-cat1.html&show=all

are both urls that get indexed much lower than
downloads-cat1.html

but the site is still functional to the user

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:29 am

So are you saying that the program doesn't actually change any of the functional structure of the existing configuration, but rather operates as an interpreter?

IE.. If Protector is monitoring for activity anyone that attempts to access:
http://www.domain.com/admin.php
that it will still be monitoring the new page http://www.domain.com/admin.html (if that is actually what it becomes)?
because in actuality, you are saying that INTERNALLY GT (or some form of translator for GT) is accessing the admin.php page?

Again, this is where documentation would come in real handy, understanding exactly what the heck is going on.

Please clarify so I can get some more understanding.. Again, please see the original message in this thread.

Also, again I must ask, how does having such a structure in place affect the implementation of future updates of either security or function? Instruction code (internal to SQL access) would seem to still be affected by implementing such a revision, especially if you are saying that the old pages are not acceesible with GT in place.

Thanks

Captain Joined: Oct 26, 2003 Posts: 531

Google Tap rewrites the incoming URL at the web server level before the PHP code (phpnuke) ever sees it. It only rewrites those you've told it to recognize and leaves all others alone.

It also rewrites the outbound URLs so that they come in to the server (but not the application) as GT-enabled URLs.

- Virgil

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:12 am

Again, How do mods that operate via .php addresses (especially those designed to track users and user activity) function, given this is how the application works?

Also, again, how does this affect updates, especially those that address SQL interface to .php addressed output, security, user tracking, etc...

I'm still having a real hard time understanding how output (site and/or application) can be seperated without conflict or sacrificing security.

Also, how do you address intra-page functions such as banner blocks that are designed to read data via a php based address interface?

What if a redirect exists inside any block? Won't this again cause a problem?

Is there a test program that could identify potential problems BEFORE one were to implement GT? Also, is anyone ever going to address the issues of implementing updates?

Thanks!

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:39 am

Okay, this is what makes me nervous.

The first thing I did when going to Optical's sites is go to the forums.

What did I find? SID NUMBERS ON BOTH SITES!

The bad news?
This demonstrates that 100% of the sites that have been provided as shining examples of successful GT implementation (in this thread) have either not been enabled with GT at all, been setup WRONG or are incomplete in a major way.

I mean, I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but if you are going to tell me how great everything works, at least have it setup in your forums and/or have this thing setup and running correctly with at least half of the features on your site that I have discussed in the original post.

In the first example site I visited, they didn't have forums even enabled! This isn't exactly what I would call a shining example of GT. I mean if you don't have forums, why do you even need GT? If you have a total of 10 pictures on your site and you have GT enabled to give you a seperate .html page for each one, that is great, but if you don't have it enabled for your main source of text data (which in a couple of sites, they have only partially functioning Javascript add-ins) again, what's the point of even having GT?

vjg, do you even have GT enabled on your site? Every page I saw was a .php page.

Anyway, guys.. no offense, but if you are going to direct me to examples or tell me how it works, please make sure that you actually use it on your site and that your pages are FULLY FUNCTIONAL examples!

Thanks!

Captain Joined: Oct 26, 2003 Posts: 531

No, I don't have GT enabled. I don't want or need it. I would expect that most people would NOT want to google-tap their forums because the bandwidth cost of having google trawl through all their forum posts would be quite expensive.

I believe that most people GT their sites because they want all their other dynamic content GTd, not their forums.

Now, you are having a great time throwing stones at it, but what have you done to understand it? We've told you that it does mod-rewrites at the server level and only "normal" URLs are actually processed by the phpnuke software.

It was made quite plain that you have control over which URLs get re-written. (as an aside... I've been thinking about something called auto-Tap that would automatically and transparently GT the entire site, including any added mods... but I'm not sure if what I want to do would work or be beneficial).

As for your assumption that a partially GTd site is in some way "wrong", I can only say that you are wrong. That is author's choice... either because they chose to only GT part of their site or because they chose not to investe time/energy in learning how to extend it. It isn't the "bad news" you want it to be.

Time for you to download the GT code and look at and understand it before you start casting further aspersions.

- Virgil

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 11:55 am

AMEN 64bitguy... you just typed up everything i was too lazy too! LOL...

Exclamation

your concerns are dead-on. hopefully if you try googletap you can let us know how it goes... Smile

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 12:41 pm

Quote:

It only rewrites those you've told it to recognize and leaves all others alone.

It also rewrites the outbound URLs so that they come in to the server (but not the application) as GT-enabled URLs.

Where is that documented? In addition, where and how do you set that up?

Quote:

It was made quite plain that you have control over which URLs get re-written

WHERE?

The numerous responses I have seen include statements that say, just load it on your server and everything is automatic. Where exactly would you tell it WHAT to recognize and what NOT to recognize? This is at the heart of my questions.

Actually, I have downloaded it (in fact SEVERAL versions of it) and again, the total lack of ANY documentation has left me clueless. I have gone over the code in the various files, but again, without even some helpful comment lines, I am left without any idea of what is actually going on.

I am not trying to throw stones, but I am saying that if you only have 10 pictures on your site and none of your TEXT pages are covered by GT, I do not really see how you can call any of that "Dynamic content". In fact, I would call all of that "STATIC content". In those cases, I think that adding a few Meta comments would cover your needs completely and thus eliminate your need to run GT at all.

On the other hand, Forums are indeed dynamic content, and while it is true that I MAY not want the bots pulling EVERY WORD; I would like them to take the all of the subjects and probably at least 200 of the first words in all of the posts. Again, HAVING SOME UNDERSTANDING of how GT is operating would go a long way in helping to DEFINE some (if not all) of these variables.

In the case of enabling GT with forums (as some have done)... YES, if you have SIDs, then my understanding is that your forum is NOT configured correctly. If the whole point is to have a static address, SIDs would conflict with that or at least be publishing private keys in the form of a static address. If nothing else, I think you would be looking at a major security issue, but again, a total lack of documentation makes researching this issue impossible.

Please accept my apologies if you are thinking that I am targeting you or anyone else in the crosshairs of contempt. It is not like that at all. Rather, I am just waiting for people to respond that are actually using this thing the way it was meant to be used. To cover TRUE dynamic content in high volume situations. Again, if you have like 20 pages, you really do not need this. META will more than cover your needs. However, if you are HIGH volume with a great deal of dynamic content, GT is exactly what you want.

Now, we just have to understand:
What is going on!
How it works!
How to enable it!
How to configure the particulars!
How to ensure that security is not being comprised!
How to ensure that unnecessary replication in the scans is not occurring!
How to manipulate the timing!
How it affects backups and restores!
etc.....

I could go on and on, but as I have said from my very first post, documentation would do wonders in answering or at least addressing most of these questions.

As for enabling GT on my site, I would love to have dynamic indexing going on.. I would really love to have the "postlite" forum features that others have on their sites like phpnuke.org, but I'll go blind reading Microsoft Windows Source-Code before I attempt to implement something that could potentially down or ruin my site, prevent me from performing current or future maintenance updates or even comprimise security.

I think these are all important issues that must be discussed WHENEVER changing the interface or methodologies for structure/data access/input.

If I do decide to implement GT (as I so desire) trust me when I tell you that I'll have some GOOD information before I do it! I suspect that I am not alone in this regard. Smile

Thanks!

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 1:28 pm

64bit guy,
All of the issues that you raise with documentation are good points, however this is a rapidly moving technological advance and doing documentation takes a lot of time - unpaid time, this is open source and any documentation made is by the users FOR the users.

However, I can understand your frustration with this as it's also taken me months to pick up all of the threads regarding this and understand how and why it got developed.

The majority of nuke sites are gaming sites or specialist hobby sites. Most have minimal traffic and don't understand internet marketing, or search engines.
However because of the niche value of their site it continues to grow - so they see no need for something they perceive to be as complicated as googletap.

googletap is available as a seperate zip in downloads or it is built into the nukecops bundle, whichever you choose, although the actual workings are complicated for a non programmer, the installation is painless and simple.

There is an addition to the header.php, an addition to the footer.php and a new .htaccess file. That's it.

Of course, if you replace the header, footer or .htaccess file with a virgin file then you are going to break something that relied on an entry that is no longer present. That goes for any module or block as well.

So if you have loads of mod's, and these mod's have altered the header, footer or .htaccess, then you are going to break your site by installing googletap.

I have installed it here http://www.loansearchers.co.uk here http://www.fitnesskingdom.com and on loads of other sites, it works perfectly - they are different versions and work in different ways - but they do work none the less.

That's it.

Paul aka Zhen Xjell did all of the work to make this routine work. He worked hard to do it and if you search you will find the thread that made it happen.

Since then there is a version being developed at http://gt.audioslaved.com which works in a slightly different way but takes less server overload to function. There is a load of documentation there that should help you. This version also supports some of the more popular add on's and blocks.

HTH

Corporal Joined: Dec 16, 2003 Posts: 61

You're right. I hadn't even noticed since you don't see it when you're logged in. Check now. Believe I fixed it.

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 1:37 pm

I thought I should add that the difference in the versions of GT is that the nukecops bundle version only converts around 50% of the url's to short html url's.

The GT nexgen version supports 95% or better however it only works when the url is requested - so if you are mousing over the link and thinking that it is not working, try clicking on the link, then mouseover again and you will see that it is indeed a html url that was processed.